Lapid, 73, a former TV commentator and leader of the centrist Shinui Party, has attracted Likud defectors in droves with his campaign against the ultra-Orthodox, who are exempt from Army service and live mostly on government support. Lapid wants to cobble together the first all-secular coalition in Israel’s history, and he may soon be in a position to make that happen. Polls taken last week, after a leaked police report suggested Sharon and his family might have lied about a $1.5 million loan, showed Shinui jumping from six to a projected 17 seats in Parliament–possibly enough to make Lapid the kingmaker of Israeli politics. He sat down for an interview recently in his Tel Aviv office with news-week’s Dan Ephron. Excerpts:
NEWSWEEK: Your party appears to have benefited most so far from the corruption scandals swirling around Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Why is that?
LAPID: Because large parties here are tainted with this kind of thing and the only clean party in our politics is Shinui.
But your rising numbers also have to do with luck.
I cannot deny that the timing is serving us well. Good timing is essential in politics. The political tradition in Israel is [normally] that centrist parties start strong but fade by Election Day.
How concerned are you?
What is characteristic of centrist parties is that they crumble after their first term. What happened with us is opposite. We started with one seat, then jumped six and now we stand to double or triple that figure. So we are going against this trend.
Why are you so angry at the ultra-Orthodox?
They don’t work, they don’t pay taxes and they don’t serve in the Army… The way the ultra-Orthodox parties use their clout to enrich themselves and their leaders and their constituencies at the expense of the rest of the population has become the major irritant in our internal political life.
The ultra-Orthodox parties in Israel have usually been in a position to determine who forms coalitions. How confident are you that Shinui will be the kingmaker after elections?
The size of our party is less important than the rest of the equation. If the left and the right are split down the middle, we may be the deciding factor.
Will you favor Likud or Labor?
I prefer neither. I believe what the country needs is a coalition of left and right together, and without the ultra-Orthodox parties. I will not join any other type of government.
A purely secular government would amount to political upheaval in Israel. Many people believe the big parties, especially Likud, will be too afraid of alienating the ultra-Orthodox by partnering with you.
Certainly there will be pressure on the Likud to prefer Shas [the ultra-Orthodox party] over us. There will be an inner dispute in Likud, no doubt about that.
What about the assessment that Shinui will be perennially in the opposition?
I don’t think so. I refused to join both previous governments, but I’m not particularly fond of being in the opposition. I want to change the way the government operates. The most probable outcome will be that Sharon will still be the dominant figure. He’ll want Mitzna in the government, and Mitzna won’t join unless we’re part of the government.
Are you willing to meet Yasir Arafat?
I met him two years ago, but I would not negotiate with him now. He made a decision to go down in history as a hero of Arab resistance and not some-one who made compromises with the Jews. So as long as he’s alive and leading the Palestinians, there will be no peace. We can and should negotiate with the more moderate Arab leaders, but not with Arafat. Arafat is passe.
Sharon demands a total cessation of violence before negotiating. This issue has become the primary distinction between left and right. Where do you stand?
There is no difference between the two big parties on the Palestinian issue. Sharon says no to negotiations, but he is negotiating with moderate Arab leaders. I think we should negotiate, and I think it’s wrong to condition talks on a total ces-sation of violence. But ultimately, any type of agreement has to guarantee an end to terrorism.
